Curse

syphonus · Feb 28, 2011, 02:25 PM // 14:25

Quote:

Originally Posted by Chthon

2.2. Moebius Strike is more DB and better DPS overall (enough so to justify the zealous daggers) unless you generally kill your targets on the first DB. (Back to those RARE UW runs -- things got to a point where everything was dying on the first DB.) Now that AScan and BuH are both gone, killing things on the first DB is going to be a lot harder to manage. More reason to bring back MS.

I remember talking about this and I thought the conclusion was that it would take multiple MS(3+) to catch up with WotA unless you're facing huge tightly-balled mobs. MS definitely got stronger since the last update but I haven't had time to compare the two-- it's been a long time since I've had to use a sin without AScan.

[Nika] · Feb 28, 2011, 03:17 PM // 15:17

DB is 100% stronger, because the JDF-Combo is so fast spammable that you are faster with the whole Combo (+ Recharge) than with 1 time MS + Db.

Chthon · Feb 28, 2011, 08:09 PM // 20:09

Quote:

Originally Posted by syphonus

I remember talking about this and I thought the conclusion was that it would take multiple MS(3+) to catch up with WotA unless you're facing huge tightly-balled mobs. MS definitely got stronger since the last update but I haven't had time to compare the two-- it's been a long time since I've had to use a sin without AScan.

Check this old thread for calcs. MS pulls ahead as soon as monsters start needing a second DB to put them down.

Quote:

Originally Posted by FoxBat

Club of a what? Brawling Headbutt is the skill there for KD. Or possibly battle standard honor to buff nearby damage.

If MS comes back, you can spam Co1kB thanks to the recharge effect on MS probably faster than you can charge 7adr for Brawling Headbutt. Dark Fury might change that equation though.

EBSoH is great as long as the battle stays inside it. Can't fault that pick.

syphonus · Feb 28, 2011, 09:25 PM // 21:25

Quote:

Originally Posted by Chthon

Check this old thread for calcs. MS pulls ahead as soon as monsters start needing a second DB to put them down.

I only see calcs for JS/FF vs oldschool MSDB. There's nothing there about WotA or even JS/FF/DB>MS.

Chthon · Mar 01, 2011, 06:34 AM // 06:34

Quote:

Originally Posted by syphonus

I only see calcs for JS/FF vs oldschool MSDB. There's nothing there about WotA or even JS/FF/DB>MS.

Apply the transitive property.

WotA is equal to plain FF+JS+DB (or slower if it's not stacked with another IAS).

FF+JS+DB+MS is faster than the oldschool MSDB shown there.

Now compare.

Haggis of Doom · Mar 01, 2011, 03:42 PM // 15:42

I actually run out of energy on a standard daggerspam build (C Eye, JS FF DB, elite, ebsoh, ca, sy). Wota as elite pretty much allows me to use vamp daggers. Anyone having different experiences?

Kunder · Mar 01, 2011, 03:45 PM // 15:45

I'm for a speedboost/teleport/antiknockdown depending on the situation. Not much is going to increase your overall damage with this build, better off to simply minimize the time spent doing a big fat 0 damage because you aren't able to attack. Teleports in particular can let you instantly be inside those groups that auto-stack themselves for a few seconds, making them fall incredibly quick.

CoaTB might help a bit, but its only really helpful in that it gets enemies to the 50% threshold for MB to work, other then that its a wasted skill slot. This is really dependent on just how much damage the other 7 players are doing, but I can't see it being incredibly useful.

Carinae · Mar 16, 2011, 11:44 PM // 23:44

Quote:

Originally Posted by Chthon

1.5. In fact, the PvE dagger sin build is pretty much locked into one template:
JS+FF+DB+SY!+CritEye+some kind of IAS. Everything else is just going to be inferior.

This much has always been true and the AS nerf didn't change it. It won't change until there is (at least partial) parity in the cast time for lead and offhand attacks. JS+FF are crap skills besides the fast attack speed, and it makes them golden. So, unless we get more options (or less via a nerfing) we're all stuck with JS+FF.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Chthon

2.2. Moebius Strike is more DB and better DPS overall (enough so to justify the zealous daggers) unless you generally kill your targets on the first DB. (Back to those RARE UW runs -- things got to a point where everything was dying on the first DB.) Now that AScan and BuH are both gone, killing things on the first DB is going to be a lot harder to manage. More reason to bring back MS.

I would concur. Moebius just got more attractive. However, it still isn't so strong that it's required...and that's great. It's a great general purpose elite. It's what you use by default everywhere, unless you know you absolutely need something else, and even if you do, you haven't screwed your attack chain by losing your elite.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Chthon

2.3. That leaves me thinking the best best all-purpose build right now is going to be JS+FF+DB+MS+SY!+CritEye+CritAgility+Some PvE skill. The real question is what PvE skill to fill in the blank with. (Club of a THousand Bears used to hold that position before people realized to stack AScan on top of SoH/Orders/GDW; maybe it should come back out?)

Here's where I absolutely LOVE the nerf to Asura Scan. Previously, the sin bar was locked to the same three PvE skills: Critical Agility, Asura Scan and Save Yourself! Those were far and away the strongest PvE skills for a sin and you HAD to take them for that very reason. But now...

Now we have no clear option for a replacement and that's GREAT. Flexibility is good. Sin PvE-skills are in exactly the same situation as sin elites. The final PvE slot can be swapped safely now without killing the bar.

So the debate should really be about the default 3rd PvE skill, not the best 3rd PvE skill.

We have options: (yay)

Damage:
EBSOH (good for teams, but don't need more than 2 copies, expensive, slow)
IATS (basically its 160 damage for 5e)
Club-Bear (less damage, more KD)

All three options synergize with each other and with Orders, SoH and GDW.

Utility:
I Am Unstoppable! (nearly as much armor as CA plus KD and Cripple protection)
Drunken Master (as a replacement for Crit Agility, plus Unstoppable. I know not everyone has the alcohol to waste or the inclination, and without the alcohol DM is inferior to CA, but if you do, this is an excellent combination for a sin. Eliminates CA cast times, much less likely to be stripped, also affects movement, no KDs, no cripple, only 1 armor less than CA)

Sneak Attack (blind)
Technobabble (daze)

Pain Inverter (definitely not for general, but you can feel less guilty for running it on an sin-led H/H team vs tough bosses)

Asura Scan (anywhere there is Blind, I'm thinking the new AS is a lock on Shards of Orr bars for sins now)

Sunspear Res Sig (This isn't such a leap... none of the options stand out so strongly as to be required. A sig?, shrug, I could see that. God knows it would improve the average PUG sin ten-fold alone.)

Bad Company Sin · Mar 17, 2011, 01:11 AM // 01:11

JS+FF+DB+FH+SY+WOTA+Crit Eye+w/e the hell else you think youll need, then have a hero take S&H I've never cared for AS, foes die too fast as is. Atleast with strength and honor you have Perma +21 damage, unless it gets stripped and then well just recast it. Critical Agility I believe is not needed your dagger attacks activate faster than hell as is, the only good thing I see about Crit Agility is +armor, but thats what PS is for.

Avatar of Me · Mar 17, 2011, 03:27 AM // 03:27

I've never been a fan of Jagged Strike or Fox Fangs. The half-second activation time is great, but...I prefer to have an unblockable lead, along with Wild Strike for stance removal.

On the topic of DPS, add a monk hero with Strength of Honor and Judge's Insight, and spam Death Blossom.

I frequently hit damage numbers of 100+ on spell casters in HM using the above.

Beomagi · Mar 18, 2011, 03:44 PM // 15:44

Quote:

Originally Posted by HigherMinion

I tested spamming Repeating Strike against Autoattacking with Locust's Fury active.

Autoattacking won by a loong shot. That was without buffs.

Against low-med I won't doubt that.
With buffs there's no contest. I've c-spaced my way through most of factions using locusts with heros spamming buffs - soh, orders etc. Spammed adrenaline skills.

Now i guess it makes sense to utilize it to spam no cast time shouts and flash enchantments...